Note:  This topic is a continuation of a topic found here including my initial post on the subject.  The topic had strayed from the original one, and so I decided to export it to a more appropriate location.

Thank you for your thoughtful reply to my arguments.

I am still impressed at your commitment to a policy that is clearly not working.  The tougher we make our immigration policies, the more people pour illegally across our border.  We have raised the stakes to the point that it makes more sense for them to risk their lives to enter our country illegally than it does to fight the red tape that our government requires just to get one of a limited number of visas to enter the country legally.

The question that must be asked is, are we concerned about illegal immigrants, or about immigrants in general?

LB - you make a good point. We should be working to reduce the number of illegal immigrants in the country. People that are here illegally often live in the shadows, living as almost non-persons outside mainstream society, unable to fully assimilate. However, I think that what Fiery Darts was trying to say was that rather than use only tougher enforcement, we should also greatly expand (or eliminate) restrictions on the number of immigrants that can legally enter the country as well as reducing the beauracratic requirements of entry.

My feeling is that our culture is strong enough to adopt and absorb a huge number of immigrants. In the 1800's, people were worried about the Irish and Italians coming in - fearing that our moral fabric would erode. That hasn't played out as they expected. Fear of the newly-freed slaves doing the same thing drove segregation (not only in the South, but the entire country). To me, it seems that more than anything else, it is fear of new cultures that drives the immigration debate. That fear is not only unfounded, but inappropriate. Our culture (whatever that may be), is actually a conglomeration of the many cultures that make up our diverse nation. As we allow different cultures into our own, we both absorb and assimillate them.

Some people are worried about Balkanization and creating a second Spanish-speaking subculture. This fear is unfounded for two reasons. First, while first-generation immigrants have difficulty learning the language, their children do not. Their children almost always absorb and internalize American culture. Second, there are a large number of different cultures that make up the Spanish-speaking segment of our population. Anyone who thinks that these cultures are identical or even similar is mistaken. They are very diverse. Guatemalans are very, very different from Mexicans. As are Dominicans, Puerto Ricans, Salvadoreans, etc. But they all have the potential of becoming American if we allow them to come out of the shadows.

But are they being integrated? I would guess that legal ones are being integrated much more than illegals. Somebody once gave me statistics that they weren't. Perhaps I will have to find them and post them. Here is what I put on UtahDebate hoping to debate somebody but he didn't show up. Please feel free to respond.

I must start my introduction by saying I am not against legal immigration. I, myself, am an immigrant to this country. I went through the proper channels and received my citizenship. I spent two years in the Philippines amongst the poor and understand why people want to come to this country. The need to do so legally. Legal immigrants are much more desirable than illegal immigrants and here are some reasons why.

1. Legal immigrants have health checks. People crossing the border illegally bypass these checks and are much more likely to bring contagious deadly diseases to the United States.

2. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law. By coming into this county illegally they have already shown a disregard for the law. Is this a way to attract law-abiding citizens?

3. Many illegals have criminal records. Sexual predators, child molesters, and murders cross the border illegally. The immigration process helps keep these people out if followed.

4. Illegals are exploited. What is an illegal going to do if somebody cheats him? Can he go to the police?

5. Most illegals do not pay income taxes. Even if they want to, many are afraid that they will be found. As they are often paid 'under the table' they benefit the big businesses who can avoid paying taxes on them also.

6. They take away jobs from either citizens or legal immigrants. If their are more jobs to fill then more legal immigrants should be let in. If their aren't enough jobs then they are often taking jobs away from others. When immigrants skip the line and come here illegally then they push everybody else back.

7. The conditions that the illegals cross the border are dangerous and many do not make it.

Government has the right and duty to protect the borders. I have a right to protect my property from invasion therefore I can give that right to my government. In the Constitution the congress is given the power to "establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization" and "repel Invasions". We must hold are government accountable for their lack of action.

The problem that we have here is that we simply cannot close the border.  It is too long through too much open territory.  Tightening controls at border crossings has only served to make the dangers of an illegal border crossing more appealing in the face of near uncertainty of entering the country legally.  In order to deport or otherwise deal with the majority of illegal immigrants currently within our country, it would take a years, and there is just no way to close or even tighten the control of the border for that long of a time.

How would you suggest that we stop the flow of illegal immigrants?

It's not even about inciting fear. It's more about incentive to enter the country versus the various costs associated with crossing the border. Currently, it is difficult and fairly expensive to cross the border legally if you live in Mexico (not all of this is due to US policy as corruption on that side of the border often limits access to legitimate channels for immigration), and it is difficult, dangerous, and expensive to cross the border illegally. With the cost of legal entry so close to the cost of illegal entry, there is more appeal for people to cross illegally, in spite of the risks.

I just remembered that, with all of our concentration on securing the border, we have been ignoring the other source of illegal immigrants which are legal immigrants who violate the terms of their visas. This would include those with tourist visas who stay to work or those who stay after their visas have expired (Apu fit into this latter category). I'm afraid that not much can be done about these illegal immigrants. I've seen figures that approximately 2% of people with visas overstay and become illegal immigrants, although it didn't say how those numbers compared with those who crossed the border illegally. Typically these people are better educated and wealthier than other illegal immigrants, and they are also more likely to be Asian or European, both of which could help explain why they are considered so rarely in immigration debates.